More about Lathes...

I need some consumer reports from you folks. I am going to buy a lathe and my knowledge of lathes is practically zero. So reading the specs doesn't help me too much.
Therefore, I'm asking you all for advice, opinions and feedback. I'll be using it for ship model building.
My choices are, (cost is a consideration. I don't need or want a big machine shop lathe):
  1. TAIG Precision Micro-Lathe. Sold by Model Expo $339.99
  2. MicroLux 7 x 12 High Precision Heavy-Duty Miniature Lathe. Sold by Micro Mark. $569.95
  3. Sherline Long Bed Miniature Lathe. Sold by Micro Mark $650.00
Looking forward to getting some good advice. Thank you.
{Barry Rudd}
What do you want to use the lathe for? Turning spars, deadeyes, belaying-pins, stanchions, or wheels from wood? Bells, cannons and pedestals from brass or other metal? Or, do you want to build a working steam engine to power a model?

I think the above lists almost ALL these ship-modeling uses I've found for my lathes.

A lathe purchased for a subset of these operations may later prove unsuitable for others.
{John O. Kopf}

I recently bought the Taig and found that I had to make some upgrades, such as installing an extra bed to get the length I wanted to turn masts, yards etc... All in all it wound up costing me close to $1K Cdn. If I was to do it again I would by the long bed Sherline.
{Tom}
Well, here are my 2 cents, based on experience with a Proxxon/Sakai 230 (similar in size to your three candidates):

Make sure you get the accessories and tools you need. If they are not included with the basic lathe, the cost of buying them can add considerably to the overall cost of the beast. What I'd consider necessary for ship modeling:

Stuff which is really really really nice to have, but not vital in the short run: Finally some (partially hard-earned) general observations and tips: And finally: Do yourself a very big favour - find someone to teach you to use the machine properly, once you've bought one. There is absolutely no substitute for hands-on instruction, it doesn't have to be a whole lot but you do need some - a few evenings' worth of it goes a very long way indeed. It will save you months of learning by yourself, and unskilled use may even damage the equipment, not to mention the operator. The general principles of lathe operation are similar whether the lathe weighs ten pounds or ten tons, by the way, so it doesn't have to be dedicated "modelmaking" instruction.

Some books can also be nice to have, just to get the idea of the 'whats and hows' of machining. Knowing that something is possible is often all it takes to figure out how to do it. Check out the Sherline group here on yahoogroups.com, a bunch of guys hang out there and from what I can see they are a knowledgeable lot who can point you in the right direction. You may also want to keep a weather eye open on the metalworking Usenet newsgroup, it is quite heavily trafficked and mostly by "full-size" machinists but I've certainly picked up some valuable hints from lurking there.

Best regards, and hope this was of some help
{Staale Sannerud}

PS I think I'd buy the long-bed Sherline if I were you, due to the large selection of add-on toys available, but your mileage may vary, as always. Good luck anyway!

I don't know how much space you have or where you plan to put your lathe but I would not buy a lathe that didn't cut threads and have auto feed. I have used a Unimat since 1977 and it was a good small lathe in its time. I still use it for a small drill press and table saw. I finely got tired of not being able to turn larger items, cut threads, and it didn't have auto feed. MicroLux's lathe is on sale for 499.95 at this time. If you don't plan to put it in your house but in your garage or work shop I would buy a Enco 9" X 20" lathe. This lathe is also sold by Grisley Tool. It only weights 298 lbs. with stand. And it doesn't take up much space. It comes with a lot of stuff. There phone no is 1-800-873-3626. I bought my lathe in January 2001 and am very pleased with it. Enco is a full support tool supplies and have a great tech staff that will answer any question and are very helpful. They also sell a 7" x 10" for US $399.95. There 9" x 20" with stand is only $995. with stand or US $795 without stand. Give Enco a call before you buy, I don't think you will be sorry. I also bought one of their Mill/drill machines.
{Michael Otis}
I think lathes are like cars - everyone swears their model is the best. I have had the Sherline long bed for almost five years and have made everything from belaying pins to ships wheels to masts. It is very sturdy (no plastic) and has high quality accessories. I highly recommend it. The truth is that all the lathes mentioned will turn out nice wood items. The Sherline, being primarily a metal working lathe, allows you to work with other materials like brass, Plexiglas, plastic, etc. You can use traditional gouges with their T-rest system but I usually use their cutting tools in the tool rest. You are guaranteed a perfect cylinder. It actually requires less skill thank a traditional lathe. By the way, I have adopted the Anker duplicator to it with no problems.

Whatever lathe you choose make sure you purchase Tabletop Machining by Joe Martin. It is a fabulous book with tons of photos of setups, models, and projects. While written for the Sherline, the information is relevant to any lathe or milling machine. And check out the Sherline website.
{Greg Herbert, D.V.M.}

I have the Sherline, not the Long Bed. It is an excellent machine, but I find the bore through the spindle limiting (.405" Dia.) The MicroLux is as close to a real lathe as you will get between the three, but the real question is, do you need it's features? Are you going to cut threads? If you are just going to taper some spars, maybe the Sherline or the Taig is good for you; what you really have to consider is the additional costs of the many accessories for any of the lathes if you really get into it. I am trying to save you from a costly error; do you really need a lathe? You say your knowledge of lathes is very little..that you can learn...but if you are going to use it very little, it would be a waste; exactly what phase of ship model building do you plan to use the lathe for? If you tell me that, I will be able to be more specific in my advice, etc. During the course of my fifty years in machine shops and toolrooms, I operated just about any lathes that are out there.
{Jerry G}
There has been much discussion about this matter. I own a Sherline. I have been very happy with It's performance. If you are going to work on longer items go with the longer bed version.
{Dgbot}
I am definitely not the authority here but I am also in need of a lathe and have been patiently studying and listening for the last six months. I have been in almost daily contact with folks who are currently, actually using their lathes to turn cannon barrels. By far the consensus is that the long bed Sherline is the way to go and I will be ordering mine in the very near future if I can solve one other dilemma. I did find the post from Staal Sannerud to be very intriguing. This is one of the most thought out and informative posts that I have seen on the subject of lathes appropriate to ship modeling. Not from experience but rather research, Staal is right on the money here. And Sherline really does have MOST of the accessories that one would need. At this point in my decision making process, the brand of lathe is no longer an issue. The problem I have now is what duplicating tools are available. There are a lot of new lathes on the market for fountain pen turners and I am hoping that with a little research, I can find a duplicator that will integrate with the Sherline. So far I have had no luck finding a suitable duplicator for the Sherline lathe, hence my reluctance to order the Sherline, or any other brand for that matter. I think that, with the ship modeler in mind, it will be critical to have an acceptable duplicator for any lathe that you may choose.
{John Rose}
Several modelers, myself included, have made our own duplicating devices for our lathes. The current issue of Ships in Scale has the first part of a series of articles on making your own by N. Roger Cole. So don't limit your choice by whether an off-the-shelf duplicator is available. Besides, you could save yourself a bundle. Mine cost about $3.00 (Canadian, yet!) as most of it came out of my scrap box.
{David A Antscherl}
Just a suggestion...if you have access to a milling machine, and a lathe, you can design and build your own duplicator. The ability to help yourself is the best way I know to gain independence and confidence in all that you plan to do.
{Jerry G}
As far as I know the only duplicator made specifically for the Sherline was made by Vanda-Lay. Unfortunately he has stopped producing this duplicator and it is no longer available.

Almost any duplicator designed for a small lathe like the Unimat can be adapted to work on a Sherline with very little effort.
{Terry Godwin}

Those of you extolling the virtues of the long bed Sherline are seemingly unaware of the deflection factor when turning between centers. The use of a follower rest will mitigate this problem, however, accuracy will still suffer.
{Phil Krol}
Phil certainly makes a valid point about the problem of deflection over a long bed. However this problem may be overcome by feeding the wood through the bore of the spindle and machining only a couple inches at time. The only limitation is the diameter of the bore (@4/10 inch). I have turned wood over almost the entire length of the larger bed in this fashion with very little error. The key is to keep the cutting tool just a couple inches from the headstock. I hope this is clear.

For the record I have had zero success with the Sherline tool rest follower. What works for me is to use the reverse of the rolled sanding paper (it's like emery cloth) slung around the wood being turned. It is placed just behind the cutting tool and held with one hand while the other advances the cutter. It takes some practice but works well even over the middle of long pieces where maximum deflection occurs.
{Greg Herbert, D.V.M.}

I would avoid sandpaper or emery cloth usage around any lathe because the particles tend to infiltrate the slides and ways, and cause damage. Use a fine file to do what you want, and then you only have to contend with the filings, and not the abrasive particles; anything slung around the work could conceivably catch and drag things into the area in and around the cutting tool, a dangerous practice; an orange stick such as used for manicuring is a good item to back up a deflecting piece as it is being cut.

The deflection factor exists on any lathe, and is a function of the tool, and the tendency to have the work climb onto or away from the tool, depending on the set-up...and the material;.what kind of accuracy are you referring to? My "fix" for this is to simply use a handheld wooden rod to counteract the deflection by gently nudging the piece into the toolbit while it cuts, and then blending any deviations with emery cloth in the case of metals and/or sandpaper in the case of wood. If you want real accuracy, the piece should be in a cylindrical grinder, and not a lathe.
{Gerry G}

A Sherline Lathe can be easily converted to a duplicating lathe with some minor modifications. It is easy to do. My advice would be to get the Sherline, It is the most versatile of the lot.
{Dgbot}
See the July/August 2001 issue of Seaways' SHIPS IN SCALE magazine - From The Masthead, page 1:
"In this issue we are pleased to have Roger Cole writing for us again. He is doing a series on pattern [duplicating] turning". See page 50 to 56, for Part 1.

For his series of articles Roger is using one of the original Unimat lathes, a Model DB200, but it looks like his custom tooling for the duplication of parts, or taper turning for (i.e. gun barrels), could be adapted for other lathes.

At last fall's Nautical Research Guild annual meeting Roger gave a slide talk on his lathe duplicating tooling and on Sunday had his pattern-turning lathe in operation at the Round Table session.
{Art Herrick}
Several individuals in this thread have mentioned duplicators for such items as cannon. An excellent source for duplicators is Penn State Industries (1-800-377-7297). They have obtained the rights to the old Anker Duplicator and adapted it to a number of wood lathes. It is a simple project to mount the duplicating hardware for use with any of the hobby lathes that have been mentioned...you simply mount/shim the duplicator so the tip of the cutting tool is centered on the lathe axis.
{Joel Labow}
I wouldn't buy a Unimat. And I say that having bought one. It's one of those tools that is designed to do many things, but does none of them particularly well. I'd go straight for the best tool in each specific category. If you're looking for a lathe, Sherline and Taig seem to be the front runners.
{Frank Parth}
The criteria when buying a lathe is not so much one of space as this will always be found. What one has to think about is the basic specification.
  1. Height of the chuck above the bed and the distances between centres One will regret buying a tool that is too small to do the job.
  2. The sturdiness of the machine with respect to none of the parts of the toolpost should move unless instructed to do so. It is imperative that all the sliding parts are adjustable as they will slowly wear. No adjustment means that when things get sloppy, one has to chuck the machine and buy another, which is false economy.
  3. A large enough toolpost to accept standard size cutting tools. There are many machines that only accept smaller hard to get cutting tools. It is far better to get a machine that takes standard tools as their availability is far greater.
  4. A lead screw that will allow one to automatically machine in a straight line. Many of the cheaper lathes do not have an autocut feature. When machining in a straight live by turning a wheel by hand, the wheel is not turned in an even motion and small ruts are machined into the rod as a result. Auto turning will produce a clean parallel cut all the way down a rod.
  5. Several speeds on the motor. It is imperative that the motor's speed is controllable as not all metals are turned at the same speed, neither are different diameters of stock. Single speed machines generally wear out the cutting tools very quickly and one will soon tire of constantly re-sharpening them at the bench grinder then honing them, then destroying them on the machine again.
  6. A motor that has high torque and a machine that is comfortable to work with. It's pointless buying a machine that dims the lights then stops everytime one tries to cut with it. It may look and feel like a lathe but if it doesn't go round when being worked it is a heap of s**t and an utter waste of time and money. One usually buys two lathes in one's lifetime. The first one and the decent one that one should have bought in the first place but was swayed on price. A minimum decent lathe has at least a 1½ horse power (1700 Watt) motor attached to it. Go into the motor spec with the sales person and check that it is a good quality one as this is the heart of the machine and there are loads of dodgy 1½HP motors knocking about that burn out very quickly and are expensive to replace.
  7. Make sure spares are readily available and are in good supply. Many machines are on special offer because they are end of the line productions or the manufacturer that made them has gone bust. Do your homework and ask around. We live in an unsavoury world and one doesn't want to fall victim to it.
This is the basic mechanical specification.

The next part of the specification is the cost. Most people make the fatal mistake of adjusting the machine's specification to their pocket book, whereas cost should be of secondary importance to within a certain extent.

Never buy through mail order as one cannot touch and get a feel of a machine until it is too late and one has to pay a hell of a lot of postage to ship it back to whence it came. Visit a machine tool shop and have a feel of the tools on offer there, then if their tools are too dear, shop around and THEN buy mail order.

At the end of the day, one wants to buy as much machine for the amount designated, but keep the budget fluid.

I echo Phil Krol's critique of the Uimat 1, it is a toy and one that will wear out in no time and it follows none of the above criteria. I have seen them and indeed worked one at a show I recently exhibited at. After I played with the machine for a while, I left the stand unimpressed and saw the demonstrator change the tool bit I was using. He did this after every demonstration. Our stand was just across from his and during the day, I saw him drag three new machines out of their boxes and set them up for demonstration. I will let you draw your own conclusions my friend.

To get anything near decent, one will have to spend about 7-800 bucks.

As I live in the UK and know little if nothing about American machines, I can only offer the above specifications that I followed when I bought my second lathe. My first lathe was a Unimat SL that I bought for two weeks wages in 1970 and gave away to a friend in '83 when I bought my present machine.
{Mike Taylor}

I've read time and time again about the pro's and cons of miniature lathes and I agree wholeheartedly about your recommendation(s) for seeking out a unit not only for run-of-the-mill fabrication of model parts but a unit that will be called upon to last literally a "lifetime" of machining challenges. I join my fellow tool and diemakers in suggesting a serious look at new /used machine shop/toolmaker equipment dealers for their lathe needs. My 9" South Bend Lathe with its 3-1/2 ft bed and quick change gear box (for threading metric/std as well as affording me unlimited smooth cutting feeds) will outlast my remaining years and I've owned it since the early 1940s. It does everything you claim important for a lathe expected to do.....and more. Its accuracy can still be held to the closest of tolerances. I do not question the viability or reputation of a Sherline or Taig unit, however, if one has the opportunity to check out an honest-to-goodness industrially-rated bench-type lathe...it is a worthwhile option
{John Oliveira}
Another point on older machines and tooling. All those older machines and the new ones will also accept all standard tooling, collets, endmills, etc. The hobby machines only accept their own collets and such.
{Jim Byrnes}
I Have a Sherline Mill and a Taig Lathe. I have found both of them great machines and have every accessory made by Taig and most of the Sherline Accessories some get very pricey and tend to be very task specific. If I were to purchase them over i would have done it the other way around. Sherline Lathe and the Taig Mill - very CNC friendly. I choose the first route mentioned as it was the cheapest route. All in all I am very happy with both machines. The Taig system is more crude and also more adaptable to customizing . If you like fancy anodized attachments then Sherline is the route of choice.
{Ferdinand Mels}
My wife bought me one a few weeks ago for my last birthday; if I could return it, I would. Not only do you have to put it together like a plastic model ( with a very unclear instruction book) but the one thing I wanted a lathe for (tapering wood dowel e.g. for masts and yards) does not seem to be possible, as I have yet to find any way to move and secure the tailstock off center!!
{Geoff Krauss}
Don't try to move the tailstock off center...make yourself an adjustable center by mounting a live center(ball bearing) in a small slide that moves along the horizontal axis, and mounts in the tailstock taper... then you can make any offset and taper you need within the movement of the slide...just watch out for the deflection of the part while you turn it...support it with a orange stick from behind the toolbit on the work (far side), sort of like a follower rest...you can also use this to correct for any deviation from true center...
{Jerry G}
Well I received the duplicator from Pen State Industries made by Vega along with an Email from the company stating that it will not work with my Sherline lath. I don't need to tell you how excited that Email made me feel. Having understood how the duplicator worked I realized that with a small modification I could get it to work. The duplicator is very well made and slides in and out of the lath on two Steel Mounting Brackets. These brackets were 3/4 inch high and would touch the 24 inch lead screw under the lath bed. The solution was to reduce the height of these brackets to 5/8 inch. I did this on my Sherline milling machine using a fly cutter. I should have cut it with a hacksaw but it was too much work. I ended up damaging the slide screw on cross slide when it came loose and I bent the screw. I then made two hard wood blocks 1 1/32 "high, 1 3/8 "wide and 4" long to support the mounting brackets. Once these blocks work I will make new ones out of aluminum. I had to get 2 1/2 " long bolts to bolt the mounting brackets, through the wooden blocks into the wooden base on which the 24 " lathe is mounted.

The only problem that I still have is that the two inch hand wheel on the slide screw touches the bottom of the Carriage . The solution is to remove the hand wheel. In my case since I have a long bed lathe I can move the slide screw up to the end of the lath as I only intend duplicating small stuff.I have passed this note on to Vega and Sherline to see what their advice will be. I have digital photos for those of you who are interested. Once I get the all clear from all concern I will go ahead and start to use it.
{kennykm}

Beware of Micro's

After spending rather a lot of money on the Taig and then upgrading to larger models after only a short time, my advice would be as follows.

The highest spec small machine will rarely come close to the performance of a moderate spec larger machine. The following factors will influence the quality of work you can produce.

  1. Lathe stiffness - there is simply no substitute for mass here – don't believe stuff about super strong alloys - nothing substitutes for bulk - we are talking solid thick metal here. Personally I would now consider the minimum for a small lathe to be around 150 pounds in weight and I am not including additional things here - just the basic carriage way and motor.
    You still don't need to go to a floor standing full size, there are plenty of benchtop lathes which whilst not exactly portable can certainly be moved by one person and don't take a lot of space. Remember if you want a finish that is good to a few thousand of an inch or just want visually "smooth and precise" you need a lathe that can maintain stiffness to that degree whilst under the considerable load of cutting. Don't assume that its just a matter of taking shallower cuts on a light-weight lathe - you will quickly find that that small lathe cant take a very shallow cut - there is a difficult range where insufficient stiffness results only in "rubbing" not cutting. Indeed the heaviest machines with the greatest stiffness are actually the ones that can best remove one thou or so for a nice finish.
  2. Cutting tools - what you cant make up for on the machine spec can often be made up for by selecting the very best of cutting tools. I would recommend the indexable type where a small replaceable ceramic bit is used - far superior cutting power and economical given the superior tool life and small replaceable tip. Give yourself at least the chance of using one top spec cutter and you will see the difference. The replaceable tips I use cost around £3-00 so maybe $5-00 and last for ages.
  3. Never say "I am only going to use the lathe for XYZ and so I don't need a lathe better than a ABC" - If you have never had a lathe and enjoy practical hobbies you are going to find that this is one of the most useful and versatile tools you have ever owned. As you read around and see what is possible you will only invite disappointment if you have compromised for the lower end of the range that is practical for you to own.
  4. Don't assume cutting lubricants are all the same - do some research and use the best for the metal in question.
  5. Get something with a decent interchangeable tool post. I just to find the job of tool swapping on the Taig so tiresome, consider the little bits of packing you will need to set tool heights correctly each time you want to swap a tool. Or else you will need to mess around with a small Allen bolt which secures directly into a T-slot on the slide - not very ergonomically designed!!!
    With my larger set up I now use 3 tool posts, each tool post carries 2 or 3 tools (max 4) and I can swap with the twist of a lever which is part of the lathe and doesn't get lost like the Taig Allen keys. I spend much less time fiddling around with packing bits and brass shims now, the setting lasts as long as the tool tip rather than until the next tool change !!!
  6. Remember that lathe work is largely repetitive and however much you enjoy it an underspec'd machine lacking the labour saving features of the larger machines may become rather tiresome after a while.

    Overall I would say - decide on space, decide on money and always go for the largest, heaviest, highest spec machine that you can find within this range, get autofeed (and hence screw cutting ) and make sure that there is a gearing ratio suitable for finishing work. I have personally never had need to cut a thread - the advantage with autofeed is the quality of finish that you get with a constant feed rate, maybe an old timer can proudly do this by hand but personally I find it very difficult to wind a handle with constant turn rate for say 40 seconds a time for maybe 5 traversals of the work.

    Otherwise you risk buying twice and that will almost certainly end up costing more in the end - in short DON'T go for micro's - often a second hand moderate weight bench top will be cheaper than a new micro, especially when you consider the cost of the extra's for micro's and consider most second hand lathes usually come complete with accessories that the previous owner has carefully collected over time.
    {Jon UK}

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