Inadequate Hobby Kits

(Continuation of) an (ongoing) discussion!
A kit is SUPPOSED to provide the following advantages over scratchbuilding:
  1. Sufficient materials (of adequate quality) to build the model;
  2. Sufficient help (plans, instructions) to build the model;
  3. Some saving of time (due to stock already properly dimensioned, some parts already partially or fully formed).
From comments on this list, there appear to be many kits that provide none of these!
{John O. Kopf}
Well, John, I have to agree with you. I have built plastic military vehicle models that are as you describe. If you follow the instructions you have all the parts needed to build the model. You can get or make upgrade parts for many of these models, but they are not necessary to build the full model.

In ship modeling, the situation is different. I am building the Bluejacket Liberty Ship. Except for a machine formed hull that took some work to get to a final shape, the rest of the ship is virtually scratch built. Yes, there are some parts provided-like ships boats, rafts, blocks, ventilators and guns. But the larger deck pieces must be built from a set of wooden blocks. Accessories like some doors, the ship's whistle, the gun tubs, the stack, antennas, ships wheels, control boxes, etc. etc. must all be built. I have never done so much scratch building as I have in this "kit".

Then there are the instructions. Some of them are good, like the instructions on priming and finishing the hull. Most of the other instructions comprise things like: "for the (component you want) follow the details in the plans." That's it. Sometimes they do give you more, but then lack the detail drawings to show exactly what you are talking about.

The plans have almost all the details shown. In many cases, they are frustrating. Small details are scattered about the plans and one must scour the plans to find them. There is no inboard plan view so details that are in the center of the deck are hidden by other components.

Despite these problems, I do enjoy the building of it. When I finish a part that I scratch build, it does give me satisfaction.

To call it a complete kit however is a joke.
{Mike Tavella}

While I agree with all of you...I think it is well there are cheap kits on the market for first timers to buy...That way, if they find out they don't like shipmodeling, they are only out a few dollars. On the other hand, if the bug bites them, and they like shipmodeling, the internet is old enough now and plentiful available, maybe they will find one of the forums(lists) and learn better of their mistakes on kit buying,...

I will go even further and suggest that the children of we baby boomers (or at least yall's kids) have long since learned, "You get what you pay for".

Eventually, the age of information will annihilate inferior products...Unless it is made by Ron Popeil... laughing... Say there's an idea...The Ron Popeil pocket shipmodel... In the US, there is something for everyone.
{Cody Hart}

Cody, I agree with you when you say that there are cheap kits on the market for first timers to buy. I think that they need to remember the word cheap. I bought the President and the Golden Star when I first started modeling. These models were cheap- I think I paid less than $100 for BOTH. Anyway, they were junk. But they were good learning experience. Planking a piece of junk is the same as planking an expensive model. They provided practice- which, as Wendy would tell you, is essential to becoming a better ship modeler.

So, even tough they are not perfect, they have their place.
{Mike Tavella}

I agree with Barry that domestic kits are a better buy for the money, and have long maintained this.

In the past the problem has been that the US kit scene was very static. Manufacturers did not continue to develop new kits, merely offering decades-old ones. Midwest, a rising star, certainly has brought out some nice smaller craft- I'd like to see them go to some larger offerings. And Model Shipways, under new management is now bringing out really fine new offerings. Their old solid hull models were great buys, but the selection did not expand.

I consider European kits to be for experienced shipmodelers only - ones who could scratch a model if they had to. So, a hand to Ben and all others who have worked so hard to make domestic kits No. 1!
{Don Stauffer}

I have been reading the posts regarding poor quality of European kits and cheap models used as learning experiences with some listees advocating buying cheap European kits to "learn on" and then moving on to better kits or scratch building.

While I respect the opinions of my fellow listees I must say I disagree on this point. I think it makes more sense to purchase a series of simple kits with good to excellent directions and to then use these as learning tools rather than picking up a cheap European kit with their usually horrible translations of directions which often will lead a beginner right out of the hobby!

To build a simple kit that turns out looking good after investing a few weeks will encourage a beginning modeler much more than spending a frustrating year with a typical Italian kit regardless of how well it turns out.

The first project one takes on when starting in the hobby usually sets the stage for their future involvement in the hobby. If they suffer failure in their first project they are not very likely to stay with the hobby, whereas if the first project is considered a success they stand a much better chance of sticking with the hobby. Who wants a hobby where they fail to complete the model?

A simple kit from Midwest (as an example) with the excellent directions that Midwest provides gives a beginner a very good chance of successfully completing the model. The step-by-step instructions, written in English, guide one through the process of building the model and the excellent line drawings show any areas one might question. Plus, Midwest even offers a phone number for the modeler to contact a modeler at Midwest who has built the kit and can straighten out any questions one might have. By selecting kits from the Midwest catalog one can progress from simple sheeted craft to planked skiffs and build upon the skills learned building the last kit when building the next kit.

The kits from Model Shipways are a bit more complex than the Midwest kits and offer the modeler a selection of kits that have excellent plans and directions. Also while not listed in their literature we know that we have easy e-mail access to kit designer Ben Lankford for the occasional time one might just have a bit of a problem with a Model Shipways kit.

Compare that with opening a kit box from Mamoli. You have a set of plans with instructions in four languages, one of which comes close to English, and a list of materials in Italian with all measurements in metric. Read the instructions and in many instances they serve only to confuse due to the translation from Italian being done with the use of an Italian to English dictionary by a person who speaks virtually no English! I visited Mamoli and met the entire staff and at that time the secretary was the single English speaking employee. The owners, one of whom does the kit designing, drawings and instructions, speaks almost no English, yet he proudly showed us his Italian to English dictionary while the secretary explained that he did all the translations himself. I can't speak one word of Italian (excluding mostacolli, spaghetti, pizza, etc.) but I sure know that using a dictionary to translate Italian word by word to English is sure going to make for some confusing word orders that are most responsible for making these directions seem like reading a foreign language!

Now, no matter how good the materials and plans are (and this is a whole different subject) the beginner modeler does not need the problem of instructions that at times do not make sense thrown at him in an early project. Once one is an experienced modeler they can expect to take one of these Italian kits and make a decent model from it but only because they are experienced from having built other kits and knowing what should come next, not because the instructions led them through the process of assembly.

If you screw up an area of assembly using an American kit you can get replacement wood at your local hobby shop that is the right thickness and width and go on with the building. If you do the same with an Italian kit you are not going to find replacement metric materials at the local hobby shop. True, Model Expo will probably have the materials, but that's a mail order situation that delays your building. And if you just can't figure it out and want to talk to somebody at the manufacturer about it you better speak Italian and remember the time difference! But, that's where our band of listees comes to the rescue!

Well, as Dennis Miller says, "that's just my opinion and I could be wrong".
{Kurt Van Dahm}

I think the problem with the hobby kits and the lack of good plans and instructions is the fact these kits have very little to do with actual ship building. you "need" this information on how to assemble the kit. If you know how a ship is built you can build a kit with no instruction booklet or plans. take planking as an example, in a kit you get all the same size planking material. In a real ship there are wide planks and narrow planks, planks that taper and ones that flare out. That is why it's hard to plank a "kit" hull with all the same width planking. If there was a kit that was built like a real ship would have been built then you could learn something about the art of the shipwright. Now you can take this knowledge and apply it to any subject. The building principals are the same for any ship be it a schooner or line of battle ship.

A kit is someone's idea on how to solve certain ship construction problems. Who is to say, that idea is correct or the only way to approach a building problem. The kit designer may be way off and you struggle with a half baked idea. I started off buying books on model ship building, then bought books on ship building and once I knew the subject applied it to model building. Kit building to me is like putting the cart before the horse, however there are two ways to move the cart - pull it or push it.
{Bodyplan}

Al: I agree with both you and Kurt, but up to a point. Not all European kits are bad, or "junk", as some listees have referred to them. I cut my teeth on two or three Artesania Latina kits. I am not singling out materials, i.e., wood, for example, or fittings. I am referring to the kit as a whole experience for a beginner. The instructions and the pictures were darn good, and made building the Endeavour and the Constellation, for example, a positive experience, which led me to try more complex kits, both American and European, with confidence and interest. As my experience deepened, I replaced kit wood with better wood, and the same for fittings, sometimes. I tell you, had I started with the MS Charles W. Morgan, I'd be out of modeling by now. As it is, it now sits proudly on our dining room server. So, it depends on the builder, I guess. Besides, the Italian is not impossible to figure out, if it becomes necessary. Most people today have some school Latin, or French, or Spanish, and everyone has a dictionary for the "foreign" word or two one may see on a plan now and then. Then again, millimeters are so simple and straightforward, i.e., 10 mm, 21mm, etc., as opposed to 11/32, 3/64, etc. It depends on your point of view, I guess.
{Sam Blecher}
Thanks for the encouragement, I was afraid of coming across completely negative about the European stuff. Actually unless you scratch build they make the models most builders want to build (eventually) and after a few kits like I suggest most modelers are up to taking on the typical European kit and building it to their satisfaction.

One thing that I was told both at Mantua and Mamoli was that we in America are about 10% or less of their customer base, so we will never be the squeaky wheel that is responsible for their changing anything!
{Kurt Van Dahm}

I'm building the Heller 1/100 scale H.M.S. Victory which is not even made out of wood, but I can relate to the "kit that held such promise done me wrong" thread I see developing here. Often the instructions and the kit design are set up to optimize profitability first and realism...maybe later. I too have struggled with kit supplied documentation verses real world "you can see for yourself if you would only open the right book how wrong the kit is", but I offer this observation, from an admitted novice to the art of model shipbuilding:

You learn a great deal, and enjoy a lot of smug satisfaction, from discovering for yourself how you can improve the kit and make your modeling effort more personal and more realistic.

Case in point on my Heller Victory: the Shrouds. As a novice when I started the kit I didn't even know what a shroud WAS . It was only after I happened on a drawing reproduced in Ship modeling from Stem to stern by Dr. Milton Roth that I was even AWARE of what the shrouds were and how wonderful they would look if I would only build my own serving machine, look for and use more than three diameters of line to represent the rigging, get the arrangement at the masthead just right, etc.

My H.M.S. Victory isn't nearly ready for an uncomprehending public, but I have, as a result of the shortcomings of this kit:

{Frank Hanavan}
Far from being wrong you are right on the money! I hope that some of the newbies heed your well written advice before purchasing a European kit that will discourage them.
{Al Blevins}
What made it harder to complete was the fact I had to replace many parts. If I want to replace kit parts because they are not to my liking that's a personal choice and I wasn't referring to that.

In my case I had to redo parts because they where unusable. Didn't fit, too long, too short. Take the chain plates; Mamoli supplied nice looking chain plates. If used they would have reached down to the keel, well almost. I spent a fair amount of time just remaking unusable fittings. John Kopf summarized what a kit should provide and if it had lived up to that it would have been easier to build and most likely more fun.

That was my second kit and I learnt lots from it. I'm scratch building a colonial schooner now and I find it no harder.
{Henrik Olsson}

Henrik, I understand what you are saying, but I don't think they are necessarily harder to complete. Even though the plans and instructions may be poor, the work to actually build them is the same. Unfortunately, there is no way to learn how to plank a ship by reading about it or by looking at a two dimensional drawings. The only real way to plank a ship is to do it. One you do it, you will understand the process and then you should be able to plank almost anything.

The first model I planked cost about $50. It was the Mantua Golden Star. A real piece of junk kit. But, it was no harder to plank than the Benjamin Latham that costs 4 times as much. Frankly, the Benjamin Latham plans were about as clear as the Golden Star when it came to the planking. Yes, all the information was there, but, unless you have someone to show you how to do it, the techniques must be learned the hard way.

I guess my point is that I would probably never have gotten to where I am today if I have only "expensive" American kits to build. I would have never spent the money because I would have been afraid of messing it up and then having lost all that money.
{Mike Tavella}

Henrik, I hear you. I too have had to rework many parts over time. The thing is that John Kopf's ideal kit just doesn't exist (although it would be nice). As a result, I've had to rework every kit I've ever made. I think that's part of the fun. Clay said that shipmodelers come to the hobby later in life-after they have gained some skills and understanding of building techniques. I agree with him.

The hope is to have a kit or kits that beginners can easily use to start ship modeling. I suppose the debate will rage on. But in my opinion, there is no way to make a "easy" kit that will teach all of the skills needed for ship modeling. The skills are too complex for an "easy" approach. Obviously many people try, get frustrated and give up. Only those who persevere stay in the hobby and advance. I suppose its like any other advanced skill. It takes time, patience, a little skill and practice to succeed in this hobby-more so than many others.

It's kind of like chess. You can learn the game and play only poor players-but if you want to advance you must play against better players-and be prepared to lose a lot.
{Mike Tavella}

The criticism of European and American kits seems to be an age old staple of this list. It depends on how you view it as to whether you criticize or praise these kits that we expend many hard earned dollars on.

I am working on my second European kit, Mantua's Sovereign of The Seas. I previously completed Artesania Latina's San Francisco. They represent my entire experience in building ship models in wood and as I progress through the second model, I am using this experience as a stepping stone to scratch building my next effort.

Yes, the wood is not always good. San Francisco had very nice quality exterior planking but the grain was too pronounced and out of scale. The Sovereign's exterior planking was out of scale and had an unpleasant green hue to it. It was billed as being Walnut. A rather poor version of Walnut to say the least! The experience led me to buy a saw and mill my own lumber for the deck and hull planking. The ornamentation is rather poor as the moulds are over twenty years old and putting out rather poor quality castings with "flash" around the edges. That has forced me to try carving my own ornamentation. Another acquired skill in this process. The rigging sizes are limited and out of scale. That prompted me to build a rope walk in reparation for making my own scale rope. The rigging plans are not contemporary, so I was forced to do some research on the real ship. Another adventure and learning experience.

I am now at the stage where I have put the instruction book back in the box along with all the wood and fittings and am forging ahead making my own components. I guess we would call this heavy kit bashing.

My choice is to gripe about the poor quality of the wood, instructions etc., or rejoice that it forced me to get creative and scratch build components. In my opinion, the price of these kits was well worth it to gain the necessary experience and confidence to move beyond them. Without the aid of a kit, I may never have tried to build a miniature ship. So, hats off to the kit makers and distributors for lighting the way.

By the way, I have had many nice comments about the models. We are the most critical bunch of guys when it comes to our models, but those outside of the hobby view our work as incredible! Imagine, you can build a miniature ship model and display it for all to see. Not everyone can do that.

That's my two cents worth.
{Bill Short}

My criticisms on European kits are restricted to expensive wood ones. I think Heller makes some of the best PLASTIC ship kits around. I have built their Soleil Royale, and am currently building their Le Superbe as a check on color and some detail as I build the Mantua le Superbe. I consider Heller plastic kits topnotch, and wish the European wood kits were up to Heller standards.
{Don Stauffer}
Heller makes also good wood kits, if you compare the instructions of Heller kits to other companies, I think that Heller should be the first choice to beginners because their instructions are step by step. If you see the instructions of any Billing Boats kit if you don't have any experience you give up. I gave up build a beginner kit from Billing Boats. On the other hand, Corel also has very good kits with well explained instructions.
{Luís Paulo Silva Pimentel}
Actually, I feel basswood is an excellent modeling wood. In scratch building I generally use mostly basswood. It has a very tight, homogenous grain, bends well without splitting, sands well, and carves well. It is not the most attractive wood for staining and varnishing, but if most of the model is to be painted, basswood is great. I would have preferred basswood to the walnut that Mantua supplied with my le Superbe, though not enough to go out and buy enough to replace it.
{Don Stauffer}
Don, my problem with basswood is that it is too soft. While it is good form many uses, I find that it is not good for small detail carvings or miniature turnings. I much prefer a hardwood like walnut for those applications. What I mean by basswood being too soft for detail carving is that is doesn't hold a good sharp line when you carve it. Instead of nice sharp details all you get is a loft of soft lines and shapes.
{Mike Tavella}
When modelbuilders have to discard fittings and make replacement parts from scratch, I think they have just cause for complaint.

One of the primary reasons modelers buy a kit is to avoid the necessity of converting raw material into dimensional stock and finished parts. So the money spent on many kits is wasted. It should not be necessary for a kit buyer to make additional purchases to replace shoddy materials.
{Eugene Larson}

How expensive would a good kit be? My answer would be this: = total cost for a kit that I call "good quality"

Maybe you noticed that I didn't include tools, glue, etc. I also don't ask for basic instructions on how to use them. If you don't already know, look into some books, ask here, ... etc. When you buy a car, the manual doesn't include information on what a road sign means - they imply that the buyer already has a drivers license. The same principle applies here, too.

Here is a good example on how a manufacturer could go about this: Live steam model engines:

You can buy either plans only, or plans and a set of materials needed, or plans and all the parts preworked, or plans and all the parts completely finished, ready for assembly. Or you can buy the whole engine finished, tested and working.

This way you can pick what ever suits your needs, skill, tool-park...
{Thomas Bögel}

There are many opinions on kit quality that have been hashed over time and time again on this list. It is clearly evident that the majority of ship model kits are in the stone age as far as quality goes. All you have to do is look at model train kits for buildings etc and the difference is like night and day. These are limited volume kits, laser cut, but the quality make ship model kits pale in comparison. Just visit a reputable train hobby store and have a look at the stuff they offer.

As for costs, I have always wondered why most ship modelers say this hobby is expensive. Before modeling ships, my hobby was computers and I found that I was upgrading my PC every two years to the tune of $1500 or so and in between, upgrading obsolete software to the tune of almost the same amount. My wife was glad when I left that hobby behind and settled for a much more economical hobby, ship modeling. That sort of outlay has paid for my Preac saw, Microlux drill press, Unimat lathe, thickness sander, scroll saw and a bunch of other hand tools that are not obsolete after a couple of years use. It is all relative!
{Bill Short}

Unless the model came completed, each individual would produce a distinctive model, especially if there are lots of pieces etc. Quite apart from basic options such as natural wood vs paint, hull only vs fully rigged, the variations in personal skills and the vagaries of the materials would produce a wide range of results.

Just look at the results when you tell 3 people to do anything "exactly the same". In polishing telscope mirrors (a previous interest of mine), the best way to get randomized stokes in grinding and polishing was to have several people do "exactly the same thing". In working with pottery (my professional interest), even skilled potters don't get exactly the same item each iteration -- all kinds of minor variations appear.

In any event, accepting poor quality in kits so that we are encouraged to improve them is seems a little passive. With any commercial product (except perhaps software), we expect the best for our money, and better quality for more money. A poor kit -- the Swift has been mentioned -- at $40 or so is one thing, but a kit bought for $200-$300 or more from which you expect to then toss most of the materials and ignore the instructions seems quite something else to me.

In the case of doing a plank on bulkhead model, you would do better in that case starting from scratch. There are so many detailed plans of so many ships available, where the level of detail is more than adequate for that method (plans with abundant body sections for bulkheads, half-breadth, deck plan, masting etc -- see any Chapelle book for example). If you are going to buy almost all the materials again after you bought the kit, why buy the kit?

I may not really be ready to scratch build or begin from a timber set, but that seems to be where I am headed next. I can choose my subject. If I toss materials, it is because I made a mistake, not because what I bought was not worth the money I paid.
{R Henrickson}

After reading many comments on this topic, I think it really boils down to 2 different issues. First, there are those who have complaints about the quality of the kits-the wood, fittings the rigging line etc. Second are those who take issue with the lack of plans and instructions and the need to make things. Obviously, many in group 2 also beef about group one.

There is no doubt that an expensive kit should have quality materials. The wood should be of good quality. The fittings should be reasonably close to scale. As for the rigging line, I think hand made on a rope walk should be reserved only for the highest level of kits, if then. Most of the rigging line I have used has been of reasonable quality, if not quantity. I think if the manufacturer cannot provide scale fitting that should provide detail sketches to scale with some instructions on how to make them.

As for the second group. I think one of the most interesting aspects of ship modeling is that you have to MAKE the model. This is not paint by numbers. This is not "attach tab A to slot B". This is take a piece of wood and MAKE it into a part. This is the part that I enjoy. Is it hard to do that? Well, yes-especially the first time you do something. Does it get easier with practice? Usually. DO I have to make parts over again because they get messed up? Frequently. That however, is the hobby we are in. To paraphrase the Godfather "it is the price you pay for the hobby you choose".
{Mike Tavella}

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